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@kissane I'm still very confused about exactly which actors in what places of the AT collection of services moderates the "base level of non-optional moderation" on the bluesky-specific network.... but that said, do like the ideas of stacking additional opt in third-party moderation on top of that.

Assuming that it doesn't incite the base level of moderation to degrade as they "offload" it to others. And assuming that the UX of reporting issues to multiple parties isn't confusing.

@tchambers For the Bluesky app, it's the Bluesky moderation team, which is pretty active in the classical/centralized mode.

https://bsky.social/about/blog/01-16-2024-moderation-2023

Layers-wise, I think there are two things—the official Bluesky client enforces the use of Bluesky's in-house moderation work (at the level of the labeler) but then the network-wide, truly non-optional stuff—which is very limited in scope—happens at the level of the relay:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39684027

@kissane Yes, I did know they centralize base moderation is halved by bluesky staff — but not sure at which part of the bluesky / AT ecosystem…can’t be at PDS servers as those swap out, as do the crawler indexers, so where does centralized non-optional moderation occur? Maybe at the app layer?

@tchambers For just Bluesky-the-app, as opposed to other potential future ATP apps?

Looking at the whitepaper plus Paul's most recent comments, I *think* it's labelers hardwired into the official client app(s) and actioned at the App View layer plus takedowns at the Bluesky-run relay and Bluesky-run PDSes, right?

Caveat that my understanding is highly fragmented. (As are their docs and explanations, bless them.)

@kissane I *THINK* you and I see it the same way, but I personally am still feeling like I have a 20 percent or more chance of being wrong. Wish they would clearly state that.

Side question related to that: So if Gab.com built it's own full AT Protocol coalition of services (It's own app, own labler, own PDS's etc) could the BlueSky service "defederate" entirely from GabSky?

If so, would that also be done at the BlueSky service's App?

@tchambers
@kissane
"Can you opt in to labeling" is the whole tension of labeling for content moderation - the answer necessarily has to be "no" at some level or else it wouldnt work, ppl posting harmful shit dont want it to be labeled as harmful, but then it becomes a vector for abuse as eg. The gab system eg. labels all queer people for targeting.

They have a view on abuse that "if you dont see it, then its not abuse" - so eg. here you dont see labels from labelers you dont subscribe to: https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/blob/a0625ba40f3d66528488a18f6d32854d9165e191/packages/api/src/moderation/decision.ts#L262

But it does look like any labeling service can label any event - there isnt a good way of making that opt in on the protocol. Im going to set up a test instance later and try and label myself and see what happens in my PDS.

The risk is that identity is so cheap that there doesnt need to be a stable "gab" labeling service - if it gets blocked at an infra level by atproto, cool, signal through a side channel to your followers youre minting a new DID and block successfully evaded. So it is effectively impossible to stop labels as designed from being used as abuse vectors.

I raised this last June and Paul did respond once and from a first look it doesnt seem like any changes were made https://github.com/bluesky-social/proposals/issues/19

Right. I don't think they've fully thought through the implications of the underlying design. I asked @bnewbold over there if they had done threat modeling but didn't get a response, oh well.

@tchambers @kissane that's also how I see it with Bluesky-run relays and PDS's, but they've also said that it's only illegal content and spam. Masnick's paper talked about *not* removing Alex Jones at this level. So it's not clear that Gab would have to have their own PDSs or relay. (1/N)

@jonny

@jdp23 @jonny My sense is that they've thought it through a lot and just come to different conclusions than most fedi people have, fwiw.

(Relatedly, I hope we'll see more docs and explanations now that this round of huge releases is out the door, because I always want that.)

@jdp23 @jonny

On the other note, I think the "illegal content and network abuse only" refers to the moderation that extends beyond Bluesky-the-reference-app/platform, in a larger future system.

Bluesky as a platform—which is what I *think* Tim and I were discussing—does takedowns and deletions for lots of things that don't rise to that level, and the team talks about that in their moderation report and other places. (I know you know this, I just want to try to keep the thread clear-ish.)