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Subject: On boundaries.
I’ve noticed a pattern about when I'm told I should have boundaries.
It’s that it usually seems to mean that I should have boundaries to keep out the needs and wishes of those less powerful than, or equal to, me.
A thread. 
1/9
But it doesn't usually seem to mean having boundaries against the biggest things in my life that may be harming and depleting me. 
Things like institutions – one’s workplace, one’s school, one’s government, the competitive societal structure in general.
And...
2/9
And those (now I’ve done the thread on ‘twelve ways to know when you’re exploiting someone’) who I realize are extracting something from me they need.
https://mas.to/@KatyElphinstone/113581417015412079
Often they're the same people telling me I should have boundaries. 
3/9
The power differential issue around 'boundaries' isn’t often considered.
The people who advise me about my boundaries aren't very interested in this aspect.
One therapist got angry when I talked about society’s power structures as my biggest problem.
4/9
I get that.
After all, how can you have boundaries against something overwhelmingly powerful & on which you’re dependent?
You might end up alone, poor, homeless even, futureless. In prison. In the old days, in a mental institution (and perhaps sometimes, even now).
5/9
So it doesn’t work that way around.
‘Don't look up!’... 
But yet – why can’t we talk about power differentials? Observe them, at least?
I’m a parent. I live among extended family. If I’m burning out... yes, there are those who react by telling me I must have more boundaries.
6/9
What they mean (when questioned) is boundaries against the needs of the few children...
... who come to talk to me, confide in me, get comfort in the form of physical presence, a pleasant environment, parallel play, warmth, food, etc.
I’ve started, sometimes quite hotly, to protest.
7/9
No! I won’t have boundaries against the people who need me, those small ones, who have no one else to go to who’ll listen.
Who’re dependent and therefore trapped in their situation. They have to just take whatever they’re given.
"You can count me out of that one!” I yell. 
Because if I can change even one or two people’s lives, in this way, I will.
8/9
And the other way about?
Well. I can’t easily have boundaries against exploitation if those who’re doing it hold such power to punish me, if I do.
Though I'll do my darned best to! 
And I've found it helps to share & exchange thoughts with my #autistic comrades here.
9/9
End of
#Hierarchy #Capitalism #Exploitation #Punishment #Abuse #Society
#ActuallyAutistic
@KatyElphinstone it might be related to the fact that you need new approaches in psychotherapy when you are dealing with people who have mental health problems because of climate change. no amount of "changing your own attitude" will help against the effect of seeing the world around you decline. so how do you go on?
Yes! It becomes rather a larger problem, doesn't it..
@konosocio @KatyElphinstone
"Depression" from accurate understanding of facts is a trauma issue.
@KatyElphinstone Wow, this is enlightening.
I'm not in a superior power relationship with any humans ... but this reminds me of when I adopted my dog, who had severe separation anxiety. I literally couldn't leave her for five minutes or she'd cry, heartbreakingly, however long I was gone (the first time it was a couple hours, and I had no way to get back sooner) - convinced in her heart that she'd been abandoned yet again.
(1/n)
@KatyElphinstone I live half an hour from anything, so it was EXTREMELY stressful for me. The only saving grace was that I'm retired and it was winter and not, for the most part, dangerously cold, so I could take her wherever I went and leave her in the car while I ran errands.
It was *extremely* stressful for me, and it was months of behavioral desensitization, and ultimately medication, before I could leave her more than an hour and a half.
(2/n)
@KatyElphinstone My therapist and my coach both urged me to take her back to the pound, but there was no way on gods' green earth and seven hells that that was going to happen. She's a sentient being, a traumatized one at that, and no WAY was I going to abandon her (never mind what it would've done to my own abandonment issues).
It's not my right to have boundaries against someone so dependent on me. Which makes me think about who doesn't have the right to boundaries against *me.*
(3/3)
Oh my....what a story.... I am moved by this 
And I love your concluding thought, too.
There are so.many of these sayings. All disregarding power differentials and lack of choice where it really matters (those more powerful).
Things like "giving away your power"...um..."you can't rescue anyone".... On and on.
It's wrong!!! It's not true!!! 
When we found a jellyfish on the beach stranded maybe 200m from the sea, but alive, I emptied a shopper (we'd brought picnic) & levered it in using a plank I found at the tide line. My son helped me get it in and carry this..(it filled the whole bag!!)
The older men stood about telling me I was nuts, it couldn't be done. My sister went ahead to help us get over the rocks.
One guy, "it's nature you should just leave it."
Me, "well I'm just nature, too. Would you leave me dying"
It was beautiful seeing it... after a bit of stillness... wafting away once back in the water
(And yes I know they are a pest! But hey. So are we lol)
@KatyElphinstone They're so mystical looking anyway. I can see it in my head. 
Yes!
And then later my sister sent me this. In her message saying "you see Katy you were right" 
Hm not sure if that works.
Here:
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/u2KbHp9t23dEJgy3/
@KatyElphinstone Wow, I had no idea! (The original link worked btw)
No, me neither 
And when I went to read up about why they are pests, it turns out the main reason is because they end up - lots of them - going into nuclear power reactor cooling systems, causing them to be shut down.
So actually they are activists as well !!!!
@KatyElphinstone @callisto
Yeah; I want an octopus friend now. 
@KatyElphinstone thank you for that. we've come to a similar conclusion. boundaries are important, but some of the ones society teaches are just an excuse for oppression.
I love it when other people here have had or are having same thoughts!
I wonder if there's some group synchronicity among us all... 
@KatyElphinstone this topic was a few years ago for us, so not chronological synchronicity, but we do expect that similar experiences led to it
Yes. That is very likely. I'd love to hear more about you & your process there but only if you felt like sharing it of course
@KatyElphinstone we would like to tell that story, we've figured out how to, but maybe tomorrow when we're in the right mood :)
I will look forward to it but absolutely no pressure
@KatyElphinstone « please have boundaries… you’re making us look bad »
@llPK @KatyElphinstone
.
like when the referee says, Gentlemen, protect yourself at all times
@KatyElphinstone "I feel like it's not me, it's the world that's sick", Ren spoke truth in 'Sick Boi', for sure.
There's a general sense of burnout society-wide at the moment; international. I very much believe it is due to the stage of the system we live within as it works to extract every last crumb of value from under every couch cushion.
And you get comfortable using one piece of software, for instance, & then they bring in a new, invasive "feature", or tweak they're privacy policy ...
Yes. Yesterday I was doing some staff training in Teams and SharePoint.
I saw the distress and confusion that was being caused by every landing page suggesting everything you want to see, to you.
When I showed people how to get to their file structure, have control in the way we used to before everything was done for us.... There was a sigh of relief in the room...
I'm getting teased at work for having people leaving my office traumatised... From the IT training!! That they're going to have to put in a room for massage, meditation etc, at the bottom of the stairs 
But I began to think there's a reason for this trauma.
Trauma recovery work shows that the greatest element causing trauma is a lack of control.
Everything being done for us... Us not even knowing where we are in the system... This lack of orientation. Let alone control.
It's causing trauma
@KatyElphinstone Yes. It's basically a lack of control I rail against every time some "upgrade" is forced on me. Constantly having to relearn things to keep doing what I was doing just fine.
Yes.. and the having no choice, as you say
@KatyElphinstone I really don't get that reaction by the therapist you mentioned.
They're supposed to be system thinkers, too, so how are they not prepared to deal with that? That's a very real problem and acknowledging that no amount of therapy to an individual will fix a large system isn't that hard.
From a good therapist, I'd expect that they present strategies on how to remain able to act and think positively, despite the system around you.
Yes, true... hm I think in this case she just could not deal with my way of thinking. It didn't seem to fit into any of her experience or training. I actually feel for her, as I think she felt she'd 'tried everything' and it wasn't working with me.
I was attempting to explain my experience, as per (what I thought were) her instructions, and she was essentially saying, 'not like that'... I tried three or four different ways to describe my experience to her, all of which she said were not what she was looking for... and this societal lens thing was a bit of a last resort... like, me clutching at straws! Like - well, if we get to the CRUX of it. From my perspective, obviously. So her anger didn't come out of nowhere, I suppose.
@lizzard @KatyElphinstone. The four therapists I knew in college, all felt I had to change to accept the physical and financial abuse of spouse, family, and society.
@UnCoveredMyths @KatyElphinstone which kind of therapy? My (limited) experience with cognitive behavioral is that it's essentially "training people to be able to work again", not fixing anything deeper...
I old enough, it was just called therapy. What the student health services in two colleges offered over three decades ago.
Naming it wasn’t common then. At least not to the students. Even when I was a psychology major, naming types was not common.
Back then, and there, everything was talky. And they tried to make fish into cats to climb the trees like everyone else.
They tried to make us automotrons.
I wasn’t one.
Couldn’t be one.
Oooh ouch. Sounds a bit similar to this, I think.
I was recently looking at lists of new books online and I saw there's one on the dark history & gaslighting nature of much therapy. Wish I could remember the title